Daniel Winterfeldt (pictured above right), general counsel for EMEA and Asia at Jefferies and founder of the InterLaw Diversity Forum, discusses how LGBTQ+ representation in law has changed since the 1990s, the importance of data in driving further progress, and why more than just marches and rainbow lanyards is required
How easy did you find it to come out professionally, and what were the barriers you faced?
For me, I didn’t really have a choice. I came out at university, and once I’d made the choice to be myself, there was no going back. I was definitely aware that I faced additional challenges and barriers from being out, but I also think you get a lot of benefits, so you have to take the good with the bad.
Through my involvement with the InterLaw Diversity Forum and working with charities, I’ve gained access to networks, opportunities and relationships. While it’s easy to dwell on the negatives, what’s much more powerful is focusing on the positives and realising all the benefits that have come from being myself and being authentic, including the support from the LGBTQ+ community, as well as the many allies who have stepped forward to help me throughout my career. All of that wouldn’t have been possible if I hadn’t been out.
In 2008, you established the InterLaw Diversity Forum, which was recently recognised as DE&I: In-house Initiative of the year at the Legal 500 UK ESG Awards. What motivated that?
It was very isolating when I first came out in 1992. While undertaking a clerkship at the European Court in Luxembourg in 1999, I was one of the only out people there. Some people I knew wouldn’t speak to me in public, or they would only meet in private so we wouldn’t be seen together. When I moved to London in 2000, I was often in law offices of 200-250 people and I would be the only out person or one of just a few.
By 2008, when I became a partner, I was able to step back and ask, ‘What can I do about this?’. At that point I was running the Forum for US Securities Lawyers in London, which brought together securities lawyers, bankers, intermediaries and people from the London Stock Exchange to discuss capital market issues. Eventually, I realised that if this could work in the US securities space, why couldn’t it work for diversity?
I knew that we had to have allies involved, because at the time LGBTQ+ people were not in management roles, but I also knew that we needed to provide a safe and welcoming space, so people didn’t feel isolated like I had.
Once the InterLaw Diversity Forum started, we quickly got involved in research, and we started doing sexual orientation and gender identity-focused research with the Law Society and the Judicial Appointments Commission. We had evolved from being a meeting place to an engine for change.
I also started encouraging law firms to monitor sexual orientation. There are generational differences around sexual orientation and gender identity and, if you don’t ask the questions, you risk sending a signal that it’s a problem. While collecting sexual orientation and gender identity data is commonplace in UK law firms today, it took time to convince firms that many staff are happy to provide this information if given the chance.
What would you say has been the InterLaw Diversity Forum’s biggest achievement so far?
In terms of the LGBTQ+ space, we have helped to move the UK legal sector from being nowhere to being a leader for LGBTQ+ inclusion. People now have networks and they’re recruiting LGBTQ+ talent, running ally programmes and people are marching in Pride – clear progress.
The next challenge is the retention and advancement of LGBTQ+ people to partnership and management, as well as ensuring equal pay for them. In our research, we see a notable volume of LGBTQ+ attrition, larger than any other group we look at, and the LGBTQ+ group is one of the only groups that hasn’t grown at partner level during our research period. We also see stark differences in pay between LGBTQ+ men and their counterparts at the top levels of pay in the profession, so there’s still more work to be done.
You have to be really looking at and following the data. We can’t mistake visibility and activity for equality. It’s not enough to just march in Pride, have a rainbow lanyard and be part of a network group. And while everyone loves to feel their work is being recognized, awards and rankings are only as good as the true impact they are having on people’s experiences; you need to be doing that next level work to understand where there are mismatches in access to opportunity, reward, or a sense of belonging – and taking steps to address those issues.
The InterLaw Diversity Forum continues to hold regular events for LGBTQ+ people in the profession and their allies. It has struck me that we are seeing an increase in the number of attendees who tell us they don’t feel comfortable being out at work or at home. In a more challenging climate, the fact that we are continuing to provide a safe space for those in this position is important to me.
Do you feel an obligation to be in that role model position and use your voice to push change?
I think I don’t really have a choice, as there aren’t too many of us around. When I first became a partner, people told me I was one of the most senior LGBTQ+ people in the whole community, even though I felt like I was just getting started.
I’m also very proud of the InterLaw Diversity Forum and how it’s expanded beyond the LGBTQ+ community into networks for race & ethnicity, disability, women, and social mobility. We’re anchored in intersectionality, allyship, culture and leadership, and everything we do is data driven. Our goal is to support everyone and provide a space for everyone, and we look to create access to a wide range of leaders and role models, each bringing different perspectives and experiences. But we also look to discuss the issues that really matter to people. There is a real need to create space for sensitive and serious discussions on the realities of working in the legal sector right now.
I’m very proud of the change programmes we’ve worked on, such as the UK Model Diversity Survey in collaboration with the American Bar Association, which collects really interesting data for clients from law firms and goes far beyond just headcount to gather meaningful insights into talent, leadership and culture. We have brought together over 45 clients and 30 law firms to collaborate in this space and to share best practice.
Within the legal sector, what do you think could be done better? And what is the biggest challenge that still needs addressing?
We’re in a challenging period right now, and that needs to be recognised. Firstly, we need to remind people that talent is the biggest asset of any law firm – the importance of focusing on talent is never going away. All lawyers and all law firms are providing ideas and solutions to clients, so we need the best possible people working together in an inclusive way to get the best outcomes for our clients.
Secondly, we need to follow the data, and make sure that we are using it to guide and address issues within organisations. Using it to highlight how to get the best talent, keep the best talent and utilise the best talent, and making the most effective use of resources to follow through and achieve our business goals.
For more, see ‘We’re all nervous right now’ – how a subdued Pride month got caught in the DEI backlash
More Pride Perspectives:
Patrick McCann: ‘We need more queer managing partners’
Emma Woolcott: ‘We need a plurality of perspectives around the table when decisions are made’
Cai Cherry: ‘It’s easy to think something isn’t your problem – but equality is all of our problem’
